2024-25 Season

Talk about YOUR Creighton Bluejays!

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Re: 2024-25 Season

Postby Jays26 » Sun Feb 09, 2025 3:04 pm

Alphawalt wrote:
SeattleJay wrote:Kenpom and Torvik still have us at 30

Massey has us at 17 and Nolan ELO has us at 15

Evan Miya at 22

Massey Composite has us at 31 but is always slow to update

Gotta keep winning


Jays will probably be ranked 24 or 25 this week in the polls. If they win both games this week, probably a bump to lower end of top 20 next week as polls always have east coast bias and would be more affected by win over UConn and road win at St. John’s.


I certainly expect them to be higher than that.
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Re: 2024-25 Season

Postby skinzfan23 » Sun Feb 09, 2025 3:10 pm

I have no idea what Creighton needs to do to move up in these rankings. Obviously winning is more important than any of the rankings but the Jays are only 32 in NET rankings even though they are 11-6 in quad 1&2. Meanwhile Ohio st is 8-9 and they are 26. Illinois is only 10-8 yet they are 12.
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Re: 2024-25 Season

Postby JacobPadilla » Sun Feb 09, 2025 3:34 pm

SeattleJay wrote:Kenpom and Torvik still have us at 30

Massey has us at 17 and Nolan ELO has us at 15

Evan Miya at 22

Massey Composite has us at 31 but is always slow to update

Gotta keep winning


I think they've dug themselves a pretty deep hole from a predictive metrics standpoint with their turnover rate disparity and lack of offensive rebounding and free-throw attempts. That's largely a result of roster construction and style of play, but they haven't been elite enough in other areas (outside of 2-point percentage) to offset what they're giving up there enough to get them in the top 20 in net rating.
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Re: 2024-25 Season

Postby SeattleJay » Sun Feb 09, 2025 3:51 pm

Jacob, I assume we are better at FT differential rather than the number of attempts we take? That doesn’t help?
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Re: 2024-25 Season

Postby JacobPadilla » Mon Feb 10, 2025 12:46 am

SeattleJay wrote:Jacob, I assume we are better at FT differential rather than the number of attempts we take? That doesn’t help?


While Creighton leads the country in lowest foul rate, teams shoot at a nearly 75% clip when they do get to the line against CU (304th). And while they get to the line a lot more than their opponents (28.8% vs. 16.5%), the Jays still get there far below the average rate (33.2%; CU is 302nd in FT rate).

I don't have a firm understanding of how exactly Ken calculates his ratings and how things are weighted; just pointing out some of the outliers on their sheet and how they may impact the final net rating.
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Re: 2024-25 Season

Postby SeattleJay » Mon Feb 10, 2025 12:48 am

JacobPadilla wrote:
SeattleJay wrote:Jacob, I assume we are better at FT differential rather than the number of attempts we take? That doesn’t help?


While Creighton leads the country in lowest foul rate, teams shoot at a nearly 75% clip when they do get to the line against CU (304th). And while they get to the line a lot more than their opponents (28.8% vs. 16.5%), the Jays still get there far below the average rate (33.2%; CU is 302nd in FT rate).

I don't have a firm understanding of how exactly Ken calculates his ratings and how things are weighted; just pointing out some of the outliers on their sheet and how they may impact the final net rating.

Thanks
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Re: 2024-25 Season

Postby SeattleJay » Mon Feb 10, 2025 12:51 am

It seems like almost every coach that plays us talks about what a defensive unicorn Kalk is and how it’s difficult to prepare for.
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Postby Minnesota Jay » Mon Feb 10, 2025 5:50 am

JacobPadilla wrote:
SeattleJay wrote:Jacob, I assume we are better at FT differential rather than the number of attempts we take? That doesn’t help?


While Creighton leads the country in lowest foul rate, teams shoot at a nearly 75% clip when they do get to the line against CU (304th). And while they get to the line a lot more than their opponents (28.8% vs. 16.5%), the Jays still get there far below the average rate (33.2%; CU is 302nd in FT rate).

I don't have a firm understanding of how exactly Ken calculates his ratings and how things are weighted; just pointing out some of the outliers on their sheet and how they may impact the final net rating.


It literally doesn't take into account any of that stuff. Just straight net efficiency, not mattering in the least how you go about scoring and defending.

We dug a hole because we had three terrible performances (Nebraska, SDSU, Gtown) in which we underperformed expectation by an average of ~23 points per game. The Gtown game in particular was a performance on par with what you'd expect from the ~300th best team in the country. A loooot of teams above us don't have anything like that on their record (among other factors). To that end, you can go to Torvik and sort dates to see that from the NU to the Gtown game we were only the 75th best team in the country (despite the Kansas win). We would jump ~4 spots at Kenpom if that Gtown game was simply a close loss instead of a blowout. Its not just that we lost these games, its that our per-possession performances were atrocious.

On the flip side, we've been slow to climb the predictive rankings because we've only slightly overperformed expectations. While we've obviously played well and our resume metrics have improved considerably, we've only overperformed expectation in the last 5 games by about 4 point per game. Winning at Nova by 2 instead of the projected 1 is a great Q1 resume-building win, but its not going to shift the predictives at all because it almost perfectly matched expectation (ie. we've played only a little better than you'd expect the 30th best team to perform). By the same token, losing that game by 2 wouldn't have hurt the predictives either even if it would have been considerably worse for the resume.

Case in point - Torvik suggests we're the 19th "best" team (net efficiency) in the country since Jan 1 despite having the 9th most impressive collection of wins and losses. As a point of interest, we're basically the opposite of that 6 seed/elite eight CU from a couple years ago that had the predictives of a 3/4 seed but the resume of a 7/8 seed.

On the NET topic, because this is something people are often somewhat confused about - The NET is NOT a resume metric, and it NOT driven (primarily) by your wins and losses or your quad records. The NET is an efficiency metric, akin to Kenpom, used to assess the quality of your wins and losses. It is a predictive metric (Kenpom, Torvik) rather than a resume metric (Wins above bubble, strength of record). The NET informs the quad records, not the other way around. The "Ohio St. is this and that" argument is explained by their net efficiency margins, not their win/loss record. And thats fine - the NET is a sorting tool, not a ranking tool. A team's performance against the NET is far more important than their actual NET ranking. Which is why we'd be more like a 6 seed today than an 8 like the raw NET number might imply.

Hopefully I explained that in a way that makes sense
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Re:

Postby HaRdWoOd » Mon Feb 10, 2025 8:39 am

Minnesota Jay wrote:
JacobPadilla wrote:
SeattleJay wrote:Jacob, I assume we are better at FT differential rather than the number of attempts we take? That doesn’t help?


While Creighton leads the country in lowest foul rate, teams shoot at a nearly 75% clip when they do get to the line against CU (304th). And while they get to the line a lot more than their opponents (28.8% vs. 16.5%), the Jays still get there far below the average rate (33.2%; CU is 302nd in FT rate).

I don't have a firm understanding of how exactly Ken calculates his ratings and how things are weighted; just pointing out some of the outliers on their sheet and how they may impact the final net rating.


On the NET topic, because this is something people are often somewhat confused about - The NET is NOT a resume metric, and it NOT driven (primarily) by your wins and losses or your quad records. The NET is an efficiency metric, akin to Kenpom, used to assess the quality of your wins and losses.


And I thought the NET was used to weed out the mid majors.
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Re:

Postby Altmanforprez » Mon Feb 10, 2025 11:17 am

Minnesota Jay wrote:
JacobPadilla wrote:
SeattleJay wrote:Jacob, I assume we are better at FT differential rather than the number of attempts we take? That doesn’t help?


While Creighton leads the country in lowest foul rate, teams shoot at a nearly 75% clip when they do get to the line against CU (304th). And while they get to the line a lot more than their opponents (28.8% vs. 16.5%), the Jays still get there far below the average rate (33.2%; CU is 302nd in FT rate).

I don't have a firm understanding of how exactly Ken calculates his ratings and how things are weighted; just pointing out some of the outliers on their sheet and how they may impact the final net rating.


It literally doesn't take into account any of that stuff. Just straight net efficiency, not mattering in the least how you go about scoring and defending.

We dug a hole because we had three terrible performances (Nebraska, SDSU, Gtown) in which we underperformed expectation by an average of ~23 points per game. The Gtown game in particular was a performance on par with what you'd expect from the ~300th best team in the country. A loooot of teams above us don't have anything like that on their record (among other factors). To that end, you can go to Torvik and sort dates to see that from the NU to the Gtown game we were only the 75th best team in the country (despite the Kansas win). We would jump ~4 spots at Kenpom if that Gtown game was simply a close loss instead of a blowout. Its not just that we lost these games, its that our per-possession performances were atrocious.

On the flip side, we've been slow to climb the predictive rankings because we've only slightly overperformed expectations. While we've obviously played well and our resume metrics have improved considerably, we've only overperformed expectation in the last 5 games by about 4 point per game. Winning at Nova by 2 instead of the projected 1 is a great Q1 resume-building win, but its not going to shift the predictives at all because it almost perfectly matched expectation (ie. we've played only a little better than you'd expect the 30th best team to perform). By the same token, losing that game by 2 wouldn't have hurt the predictives either even if it would have been considerably worse for the resume.

Case in point - Torvik suggests we're the 19th "best" team (net efficiency) in the country since Jan 1 despite having the 9th most impressive collection of wins and losses. As a point of interest, we're basically the opposite of that 6 seed/elite eight CU from a couple years ago that had the predictives of a 3/4 seed but the resume of a 7/8 seed.

On the NET topic, because this is something people are often somewhat confused about - The NET is NOT a resume metric, and it NOT driven (primarily) by your wins and losses or your quad records. The NET is an efficiency metric, akin to Kenpom, used to assess the quality of your wins and losses. It is a predictive metric (Kenpom, Torvik) rather than a resume metric (Wins above bubble, strength of record). The NET informs the quad records, not the other way around. The "Ohio St. is this and that" argument is explained by their net efficiency margins, not their win/loss record. And thats fine - the NET is a sorting tool, not a ranking tool. A team's performance against the NET is far more important than their actual NET ranking. Which is why we'd be more like a 6 seed today than an 8 like the raw NET number might imply.

Hopefully I explained that in a way that makes sense


+1, great explanation of the metrics and how they are used

Overall, it’s been a little frustrating seeing the media and people who view the sport from 30,000 feet not understanding how well we’re been playing as of late, metrics be damned. Win a couple of games this week though and I don’t think that will be a concern anymore.

The other thing to note is the committee has shown the last couple of years they value wins and resume over everything else still and from that standpoint we look better compared to most of our peers. There’s only 5 teams in the country with more Q1/Q2 wins than the Jays and only 2 other teams with the same number of wins. Most of those teams are in the SEC and are basically seeing games fall into those quadrants every night so Creighton has capitalized on opportunities without dropping any games outside of those quadrants.

I think if you had asked fans before the season if they would be happy with our record and wins most would say yes, but it sure would have been nice if we could have flipped a game or two early on
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